In each episode of our podcast, we talk to amazing product builders to learn about how they work, their processes, tools they use, and things that inspire them. It's an opportunity to get a sneak peek into how other builders and makers do their jobs. In this episode, we interviewed **Philina Fan, Product Design Manager at** [**Handshake**](https://joinhandshake.com/?ref=strawberryjam.ghost.io). Before Handshake, she was a designer at Asana and Cloudfare. In our episode, Philina shares her crazy journey from a fashion designer to a digital product designer, how she landed her first job as a designer, and how surrounding yourself with amazing people can unlock opportunities for you. ### Listen to the podcast episode Philina Fan: Her crazy journey from a fashion designer to a digital product designer - 100% Builders | Spotify [Play on Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0FVH2v92qantMRGIVsVYJl?go=1&sp_cid=eb9835674d77b072eb1b4fdb689c3484&utm_source=embed_player_p&utm_medium=desktop "Play on Spotify") ### Read the transcript **Irtefa:** I'm so excited to have Philina Fan on the pod today. We're going to be chatting about a lot of the design stuff, but Philina has a really weird story of how she ended up on the digital product side. Philina was working as a designer at Carolina Herrera, which is one of the craziest, incredible high-end fashion brands in the world, and now she works at Handshake as a lead product designer. Before, she was at Asana and Cloudflare. Before we get started, do you want to talk about how you ended up here? Just curious. That's a crazy story. It's so unusual. **Philina:** It is kind of unusual, and I would've never expected it... you hear a lot about people's past, they played with computers when they were young, and they were obsessed with technology. I was definitely not that girl... I did have friends that were interaction designers in New York and in California... **Irtefa:** These are all like product design boot camps? **Philina:** Yeah, they're like those intensive 10 to 12-week ones where you put in like 40 to 60 hours... I just took a chance and jumped into that boot camp, and I loved it. I loved it, and it tapped into skill sets that I didn't know I had that I was good at... **Irtefa:** Wow. That's incredible. And how did you get your first job? **Philina:** Oh wow. I'm a very blessed human. I really believe that truly my entire life story, if we had two hours, is just full of blessings... **Irtefa:** And this segues into my next question, what’s one tip or one tactical advice that you have for other designers to level up? **Philina:** Oh yeah, this one is great because our industry really fosters imposter syndrome... **Irtefa:** It's so cool. The first step that you mentioned is actually acknowledging that this is very normal. This is going to be hard. You have to be a sponge... **Philina:** Oh, what books? There's one that I really liked, especially when I was really feeling that imposter syndrome and also being a woman and a minority... One of the things that was recommended to me by one of my favorite managers at Asana, she's amazing, was this book called _Playing Big_ by Tara Moore... **Irtefa:** That sounds like it's a book you don't necessarily have to read once... anyone at any age can read this book and get something. **Philina:** Oh, totally. At any time, too, you could repeat it... there's like a whole part about failure too, which is really useful for people who are type A and want everything to be perfect... **Irtefa:** Podcasts... what are some podcasts you're listening to or YouTube channels you're watching, or Tedtalks you're following? **Philina:** Podcasts. I love How I Built; of course, that one is so good... I love those stories... **Irtefa:** And I have a question. You said that your grandfather was an entrepreneur. What did he do? **Philina:** Yeah, my grandpa, like in the fifties, forties when everyone was leaving China... He escaped Shanghai... he was manufacturing a lot of things like fabric... And from there, he got into real estate... **Irtefa:** On a final note, as a designer, you're constantly working with product managers, engineers, and other stakeholders. Any advice for them to work better with product designers to get the best out of the team? **Philina:** Yeah, I think this is probably really cliche, but now that design is getting more prominent... it's really important that design is there at the table... * * * Here are links to things discussed in the podcast: - _Playing Big:_ [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L4HYPEA/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L4HYPEA/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) - _Designing Your Life:_ [https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-Life-Well-Lived-Joyful/dp/1101875321/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2XUK1XRARNS46&keywords=designing+your+life+by+bill+burnett+and+dave+evans&qid=1637546148&sprefix=designing+your+life%2Caps%2C780&sr=8-1](https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-Life-Well-Lived-Joyful/dp/1101875321/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2XUK1XRARNS46&keywords=designing+your+life+by+bill+burnett+and+dave+evans&qid=1637546148&sprefix=designing+your+life%2Caps%2C780&sr=8-1) - How I Built This: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297) - The Daily: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736) - 99% Invisible: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/99-invisible/id394775318](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/99-invisible/id394775318)